conversation about the christian justification for war

This is unfortunately a one sided conversation that I had with a woman who is very devout in her faith. We started talking about the war in Iraq and it just kind of went from there. I wish I had all of her correspondences, but at the time I wasn't thinking about republishing this. I would like her words to paint the picture as well........

I am thankful for this country. I am thankful for it's forefathers. I am thankful for their sacrifices.
I am grateful for our freedoms. These are not to be taken for granted. They are also NOT to be tampered with!
It IS our constitutional right to such liberties as free speech, freedom of religion- no matter to whom you pray, and others.
This administration has tampered and attempted to alter or flat out ignore those CONST-Fuckin-TUTIONAL rights in the name of homeland security. Try reading George Orwell's 1984. I am sorry, but there are too many parallels. I am as patriotic as anyone...regardless of your's or anyone else's opinion. My heart belongs to my country, my motherland, just like our forefathers.

However, just like MY forefathers, my mind belongs to myself. I will not go blindly down ANY road the current government insists that I follow. Our forefathers founded this country on dissent of the current government. This took place long before the War...as you put it...that founded this country. It is that same dissent, that same inheritance to speak out against anyone who would threaten our rights, that we display right here and now. To follow any govenmemnt with blind faith is for the weak-minded. Propaganda is for the weak-minded. Blind faith is for your spiritual beliefs, CERTAINLY NOT FOR POLITICS!

Chris




Amy,
my apologies for the delay.So as not to be reactionary like many of your fellow constituents, I have taken the time to think about your last two replies. You have now brought religion into the mix. I believe in the separation of church and state. Our forefathers put that into place from their own experiences with religious persecution. Yet that which they have worked and sacrificed to avoid, we are now becoming: religious persecutors. Christ did not teach this. An open mind and an open heart should exist between all faiths. All paths are sacred. It is even quoted in the bible many times.
How ironic that most wars are fought over religion. Religion is supposed to be about peace and salvation. Our current policies and its ignorant followers and leaders are hypocrites. Let's turn to our bibles shall we. MATT 5:39. The only cheeks I have seen turning are the ones we are smiting. Oh, I am sure that you can come up with all sorts of bible quotes to oppose my view, and justify the convictions of violence, but look it up in the New Testament, under the teachings of Christ. You will not find it. And let's not forget that the Bible may be the word of God, but it has been interpreted by the hand of man...who is fallible.
Religion now-a-days is as bad as politics. Many faiths choose to lie down with the politicians. I believe it is because of the one common thread between the two. Controlling the masses; Deciding for the masses what is right and wrong. God created us and gave us free will. And man has tried everything in his name since to take it away, manipulate it, translate it, bend it to his or HER will.
Finally, Christ put himself on the cross for you, for all of us. This passive aggressive martyr complex is unbecoming of his teachings. While we should try to emulate Christ when he was alive, too many christians are trying to emulate him during his death throes. I find it appalling and sad that a religion constantly focuses on a torture device and the death of a great man instead of what he was trying to say.
I await your intelligent, yet heart felt reply.
Come, let us hold palaver.
Chris

I am not AMy, I am Amy's mom and I am so proud that she is able to stand up for
what she believes is truth. It comes right from the teachings of Christ
himself.
There is NOWHERE in our constitution that you will find the words "separation of
church and state". The references that have been concluded by well meaning
forefathers had nothing to do with bashing and NOt acknowledging religon. It
had to do only with the state NOT taking away our rights to practice our faith
and also not dictateing our faith. But people who really despise any type of
religon today of course abuse those words to mean that we cannot have any of our
faith beliefs affect our government. IF that were true then what you just said
means nothing because your carefully picked little verse out of scripture cannot
apply to anything that is going on with our government etc.
Yes God gave us free will...but HE did not give us free will to do evil. Evil
is the force behind people such as Sadam Hussien and the terrorists who now are
plotting all over the world to take out AMericans. We have a free will but God
also gave us many lessons thru Christ and all throughout scripture history on
the responsibilities that go along with free will and rights. We have a
responsibility to protect our country and our rights as a nation therefore
defending us all from evil (terrorists and the like). If one would study
scripture in depth (which we have) one would know that war is justified to
defend against evil.
YEs scripture is interpreted by each of us individually. But if we really have
the Holy Spirit working within us we recognize truth and righteousness. JEsus
said "my sheep know my voice". Those that don't really know Him do not really
hear his voice they are hearing false voices.
Free will Never gives us the right to do what Jesus taught us is wrong such as
abortion. (I think the commandment says "THou shall not KIll) not "thou shall
not kill unless it's more convenient right now to so so". We have a
responsiblity to protect life and we have a responsiblity to defend life from
evil.
Go back and study more scripture because I think you missed some things. The
paths of religon are not all the same. ANd though we should be loving to one
another, Christ came to let the WORLD know that through HIM is the only way to
the Father. There is only one Heaven and it is by the faith that Christ gave us
that we believe what He taught us to be true. He told us to go out and
evangelize and teach as the apostles did and bring as many people to His love as
we can possibly teach that too. Do you know why He destroyed Soddam and
Ghemorea?? It was because morality was in the toilet as it is in our country
today. Men were lying with men and that as Christ taught us is not the way His
Father created us to live it is sinful so when we choose in our country to turn
away from calling sin just what it is SIN then we allow evil to assault us from
all around. We have been told that this is the way it would be but it is
OH...so much easier to turn a blind eye and live the way w!
e want and not the WAY CHrist came here to teach us to live. IT has always
been easier to do things our way and not the way we need to in order to honor
God. Sooner or later it always catches up with nations that do that as a whole
and they destroy themselves. Which is what is happening to our nation as we
speak. Christianity is being persecuted in our country and immorality prevails.
War will not help but it is a way of defending for a little while. Christians
are desparately trying to save our country from total destruction but as society
goes further and further down the immmoral path we are just destroying ourselves
and bowing to the ruler of HELL. It will only be a matter of time if we don't
allow faith to influence our moral compass in our country. IT CANNOT BE
SEPARATE. IT MUST NOT BE SEPARATE IF WE ARE TO SURVIVE AS A SOCIETY. THat is
what Jesus taught. IF you don't believe that or even hear CHrist's voice saying
that then please keep your views to yourself because we cannot correspond when we are not even on the same playing field.
CArol

You know, it's times like these... with people much like yourself that I thank God for the inner peace and wisdom to turn to others for advice. Most people say I should just ignore you. I should just let you go on. That it doesn't really matter. Even my dad, who is a retired minister(yes, I am familiar enough with scripture- it always comes down to interpretation, remember?) says I should just ignore you. But you are a human being who deserves as much of a chance as anyone. That is Christ's teachings. Unfortunately I gave into anger and self righteous indignation in my responses to you. I succumbed to the argument of there can only be one right and one wrong. Thanks Dad, my eyes are a little more open now.
But this discussion has blinded us both, and we are both wrong. Wrong in how we deal with one another. We both have put too much importance on being right. Neither one of us is actually listening to the other. This is not communication. This is not respect. This is not Christ's way. In a way, this justifies my argument about wars and religion. Bless you father, for your wisdom. Bless you too for this opportunity to communicate. I hope we may continue as long as we are respectable to each other. I am not here to tell you you are wrong, or that my beliefs are better than yours. I do not believe yours are any better than mine. I am not wrong either. I am open to opinion, expression of feelings, and thoughts. However, resorting to anger through insults ie... a playing field... does not help either of our sides. It only gives into ego, by elevating one's self by tearing down another. Where is the honor in that? How can you truly help another to see through anger? This is not Christ's way. Where are the harsh words of Christ in the scripture?
The Christ that associated with and befriended all walks of life; the lepers, the prostitutes, the idolaters, the sinners... Where is there war in that? Where is the compassion? These are questions. These are not challenges or slaps in the face. These are not insults...9/11 was the slap in the face to us...that was what I meant about turning the other cheek. We have not done that.
As far as the "separation of church and state", I never said it was in the constitution. Look at countless Supreme Court Decisions about the constitution. Their research extends into the first congressional congress that created this document, from their notes and essays. They found that the government did not have, nor should have an opinion on religion other than to practice freely. That the government should not endorse any religion as this would create a similar situation they escaped from with England. England had a state religion, and punished those who did not worship their way. These are historical documents. Points of fact. I'm not trying to argue with you here, just clarify what is concrete and true.
On a side note, look up the Treaty of Tripoli, if you have time. Our first President, George Washington assured the nation of Tripoli that we were not a christian nation. That doesn't mean we are any other sort of religious nation. That doesn't mean we are a nation without religion. Its people are religious and devout. The government places its trust in the people to practice freely. The people place their trust in the government to let them pray their own way. In a way, religion is in our government, through its people, and in my opinion that is enough.
Enough for now. Again I apologize for my insults and anger. I hope to hear the same from you.
I await your reply.
Chris

What a bunch of crap.
Carol


Chris,

What a wonderfully written email. Good for you.

I was going to jump into this at one point and try to explain to you who you were dealing with. Then I decided to let you find out for yourself. I have been battling this mentality in my family and in others for almost 20 years. These particular members of my family are so zealous in their beliefs that I have long ago given up trying to convince them of everything. Instead I have taken the approach that we will not discuss anything of import while in close proximity to one another.

They have done me a favor though - only when you get smacked in the face with just how blindly some people are willing to swallow anything do you start really get angry and start to fight against such blatantly false arguments. I think my conviction to make a difference on many issues can be owed to these members of my family.

I agree with your approach that the answer is to pull back and really listen - but I do not have much hope the other side will do the same. Their position is one that is based in having to distort reality - so dont bother with facts - it is mainly based in emotion. That doesnt mean I think they are wrong - - or bad people - I do believe they want the world to be a better place - I just dont think they have the facts - they have been misled - and I think the majority believes many of the same things.

I posted a message on a message board one time - it was a political debate that was getting very ugly - and I tried to intervene and find a way to get people to see what you were talking about - that too often we are so bent on being right instead of finding a solution or the truth? So I wrote a piece on how I try to approach political disussions - I wil see if I can find it - but the jist of it was - whenever I debate someone - I take the other persons argument and I turn it around as if I had said the same thing about my belief or my candidate - if I am talking about Ralph Nader - I take a GW argument and pretend that Ralph said it instead of GW - or vice versa - and then I try to assess if I am really objecting to the argument or the candidate. If I can put a GW point in John Kerry's mouth and I still disagree with it - then I know it is a legitimate gripe. Or the other way around.

Of course I was sadly disappointed when the dope that was on the message board just told me to go fuck myself or some intelligent response - but hey - maybe someone listened.

The other part of your email that I really liked was the part about being a religious nation - you hit the nail on the head - free to be religious - free to choose. I think the problem with the other side in this debate it the inability to separate issues. Keeping religion out of schools does not mean that I reject religion - it is just not the place for it.

The best way I have come up with to illistrate that point is when the debate over the ten commandments monument was raging - I was so upset that people couldnt see that keeping the monument out of the park is actually the best way to protect religious freedom. My argument finally came down to this.

If you come to take down the monument in the park - I will be the first to help you take it down - If you come to take down the monument that is in front of the church - I will be the first one there to help defend it.

The only other way I that you could ever get through to people like that - is if you set up an iron clad test that would prove how off they are on any given issue - for instance - Amy's Mom - my sister Carol and I were emailing and arguing before the last presidential election - my point to her and her husband was that GW will ruin our chances to have a solvent social security system - it was our chance to fix it and Al Gore would have done it - she totally blew that off. Now we have deficits as far as we can see and we will robbing from social security forever to pay that debt. The chance is gone - perhaps if I could have gotten her to put that in writting - to say that if SS ends up in the tank that I was right - that GW screwed it up - that tax cuts hurts us (in this situation)- they dont help us. But I didnt do that - and even if I had it would not have been GW's fault in the end.

Keep fighting - dont let a few misinformed folks that cannot think for themselves lower the level of debate. These members of my family will never utter the words - "you know what - you are right - I agree with you on that point" It just will not happen - and that is sad.

Read Michael Moores chapter in "Dude Wheres My Country" on "How to argue with your stupid brother in-law" or something like that - hit them where it hurts - if you want to talk money - being liberal on most issues will mean more money in YOUR pocket in the end - conservatives are robbing you and they have hoodwinked you into liking it.

Talk to you soon - again - well done.

Tim



>We are not on the same playing field. There is right and wrong and people who won't admit that are trying to justify sin in their life as right. Christ said we need FAITH , HOPE , AND LOVE and the greatest of these is love. He didn't say the only one of these is LOVE. FAith and hope comes along with it in knowing that ALL of what Christ taught is true. EVen the commandments and the sin part. It is all true. We cannot stick our heads in the sand and pretend everything is ok. We should take a lesson from the cross. First the hard part ...(the crucifixtion) then the reward (the Ressurection). IF we did not stop people like Saddam etc. (the hard and sacrificial part) then we could not eventually live in peace (the ressurection) like we should all be striving for. AMen >

Carol
But striving to live in peace by being violent? Isn't real faith turning the other cheek and praying for them? Isn't real faith trusting in God? Do you believe it is God's will that we destroy one another? What about 'Thou shall not kill'? I don't remember seeing an exception to that. If there was one then why turn the other cheek? What was meant by turning the other cheek? Doesn't prayer involve some form of hope? And love, where is the love in all this war? Do you believe that war is a part of his teachings? I'm sorry, but it seems to me that Satan is the only one relishing in the rewards of all this violence. Sacrifice is involved as well in turning the other cheek? Can't you see that? That is the hard part. The ressurection is the afterlife with God. Being at peace with one's self for following the laws set down by him and his son without exception or justification is part of the ressurection. Where does Jesus approve of war and violence in the scripture! s? Please, give me one passage.
As far as this playing field thing... What is the purpose of ths? Is this to egg me on? To upset me? Is this to elevate you above me? Do you honestly believe that we are not equals? You're right, I am not on the same playing field. I'm not on any field- battle or playing. This isn't a game to me. I am making honest attempts to communicate to you with out insinuations, side jabs...I have owned my faults and made apologies. What have you done to help open the lines of communication? I know where you stand, and understand your point of view, but how are you helping this with comments like this? Please, I can be very tenacious, but I am trying not to offend you, yet still express my opinion. Whether you agree or not is of no consequence. As far as not communicating with you because of the playing field thing... that will have to be your choice. I believe it is God's will and guiding hand that I attempt to talk to you until we both see clearly from both sides.
Have you had a chance to confirm the history stuff I mentioned in the last letter?
God Bless
Chris

Don't you see that going to IRaq to help people in need is LOVE. Yes some
lives have been sacrificed and that is so terrible. BUt that is a lesson ALL
thru scripture. Sacrificial LOVE.
I do not want to communicate with you anymore because it is pointless.
Thank you for not emailing me back.
Carol


It is never pointless to communicate, or to try and understand each other. I accept your wishes, and thank you for this opportunity. I will pray for you
Chris

You don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old
because you stopped laughing.